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3.18 The Negotiation
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Apr 12th 2007

Karen didn't know it at the time, but she had walked into something that had not been resolved. Karen is dating a guy that had and may still have a more-than-just-a-friend friendship with a girl she now works with. I don't think she is rude to ask Pam about it. If anyone was rude, it was Jim for not telling Karen exactly what she was getting into when she moved to Scranton.

Apr 12th 2007

Again, however, just by saying that she had motive to find out doesn't mean it was okay to do so, and epecially in such a dismissive and hostile way towards Pam

Hostile? How was Karen hostile?

Apr 12th 2007

"Hostile" as in confrontational or territorial a la Emmyjean's comments, as opposed to "hostile" in terms of "I'm gonna kill Jim Halpert" a la Roy.

Apr 12th 2007

Oh, and I completely agree about Jim and encouraging Karen to move to Scranton, though the timeline of their exact reationship has confused me, and despite Karen's insistance in Traveling Salesmen that she moved to Scranton only for Jim, that's borderline manipulative, if largely true, itself.

Apr 12th 2007

There was no reason for Karen to believe that Pam was worried about her (Karen) finding out about that kiss. Pam wasn't acting strange around her, she wasn't tiptoeing...besides, it's also none of PAM'S business what goes on between Jim and Karen. What if the tables had been turned? What if Pam had approached Karen and said, "Listen, I just want to get this out in the open so it's not weird later - Jim and I kissed, but it was no big deal." It would TOTALLY have been construed, with no doubt from anyone on this board, as Pam trying to deliberately plant a seed of doubt in Karen's head about the stability of her relationship with Jim. I don't see why it's different, the other way around.

And no, Pam's feelings are not Karen's business under any circumstance. If Karen is worried about Jim's dedication to the relationship in the face of his feelings for Pam, then that's an issue to be hashed out with JIM. She either dumps him, or takes her chances. Pam's feelings for Jim should not enter into it...no matter what they are, Karen's issue is still with JIM.

And no, I wouldn't say Karen was hostile. :)

Apr 12th 2007

And no, Pam's feelings are not Karen's business under any circumstance. If Karen is worried about Jim's dedication to the relationship in the face of his feelings for Pam, then that's an issue to be hashed out with JIM. She either dumps him, or takes her chances. Pam's feelings for Jim should not enter into it...no matter what they are, Karen's issue is still with JIM.

Exactly. There was no need for Karen to drag Pam into it. Of course Pam was indirectly involved in Karen and Jim's relationship, but there never should have been direct communication with Pam.

Apr 12th 2007

There was no reason for Karen to believe that Pam was worried about her (Karen) finding out about that kiss. Pam wasn't acting strange around her, she wasn't tiptoeing...

Actually, I disagree with this. Pam says herself that "I've been kind of cold to Karen, and there's no real reason." Which obviously was a lie, she was cold to her because she felt awkward about Jim.

And no, Pam's feelings are not Karen's business under any circumstance. If Karen is worried about Jim's dedication to the relationship in the face of his feelings for Pam, then that's an issue to be hashed out with JIM. She either dumps him, or takes her chances. Pam's feelings for Jim should not enter into it...no matter what they are, Karen's issue is still with JIM.

Well..ok. Karen knows that Jim still has feelings for Pam. I'm sure she knows that sometimes it takes a while to get over someone, and I guess I could understand if Jim told Karen that he really wants to get over Pam and move on, be with Karen, yada yada, then Karen might be ok with staying with Jim even if he had feelings for Pam. But, if Pam does have reciprocal feelings for Jim, then wouldn't Karen feel like she's standing in the way? I suppose that's how I justify Karen asking Pam what she did. She had to make sure that there was no real possibility that Jim and Pam would be getting together.

Apr 12th 2007

What if Pam had approached Karen and said, "Listen, I just want to get this out in the open so it's not weird later - Jim and I kissed, but it was no big deal." It would TOTALLY have been construed, with no doubt from anyone on this board, as Pam trying to deliberately plant a seed of doubt in Karen's head about the stability of her relationship with Jim.

This reverse scenario is really enlightening, Emmyjean, thanks.

One more thing about the Karen reaction to finding out about the Casino night kiss versus the Roy reaction: Karen's reaction minimized the meaning of the kiss whereas Roy's reaction maximized it. I sort of like Roy's reaction better than Karen's for that reason. Just Jam-wise.

Apr 12th 2007

And no, Pam's feelings are not Karen's business under any circumstance.

If this is true, then there was definitely no reason for Karen to consider Pam's feelings when she asked her the question. If she doesn't care about Pam's feelings and they're not her business, then Karen shouldn't take into consideration that Pam might be upset by the question. Faced with the same circumstances, I would take the same path Karen took, and I would be genuinely surprised to find out that the person to whom I was speaking (or any outside observer) thought I was being anything less than sincere or thought I had any motivation other than putting the matter to bed and clarifying what end was up.

Apr 12th 2007

de-lurks

Hey, delurking to throw in my two cents. Of course, Karen/Jim and Jim/Pam is a hot topic but I kind of think Karen was being territorial (though that was natural). To me, it's when Pam slipped up while she was flustered by Karen's questioning that made me think it was more than 'clearing the air'. When Pam said 'Oh, definitely' to Karen's question if Pam liked Jim in that way, well, Karen's whole demeanor changed (as can be expected). There was really only one answer expected of Pam the entire time.

Really, Karen just cares for Jim, and testing the waters. Though she probably liked Pam's friendship up until that moment, she also viewed her as a romantic rival. shrugs I don't think she's wicked to do this, just insecure of the circumstances.

Apr 12th 2007

Welcome, rubiconlady!

Apr 12th 2007 edited

For once, I'm going to come to the defense of an episode. I felt like this episode was very well handled, totally realistic, and moved at a pace that was willfully -- and correctly -- immune to the pressures of a fanbase unsatisfied with how fast things were moving. This is in contrast to earlier in the season, when things moved at a snail's pace and were aggravatingly contrived. We should have reached this point back in December. But I think that, now that we've reached it, things feel better, and in this episode worked better. Rushing at this point just to get back on track for a timely Jim & Pam reunion would have been a mistake as well. Further proof that the months of January and February were pretty much wasted in Jim & Pam land.

Coming in late here, but well said, DFTF.

One more thing about the Karen reaction to finding out about the Casino night kiss versus the Roy reaction: Karen's reaction minimized the meaning of the kiss whereas Roy's reaction maximized it. I sort of like Roy's reaction better than Karen's for that reason. Just Jam-wise.

This is interesting... Sort of related to the above. Interesting that they waited to do the Roy-finds-out thing until this late in the season, as it does have a big impact, and it does, in effect, sort of bring up the whole subject (the kiss) again in front of everyone and makes it seem like a big deal all over again. It's as if Karen may have been able to minimize it all in her head, but the continuing fall-out just keeps it from going away.

Apr 13th 2007

If she doesn't care about Pam's feelings and they're not her business, then Karen shouldn't take into consideration that Pam might be upset by the question.

I think these are two totally seperate circumstances, LT, I have to say. Something can be none of your business without you relinquishing all consideration for the subject. If I'm friends with a couple who is fighting all the time and on the verge of breaking up, it isn't my business and it's not my place to butt my nose in, but it doesn't mean I don't care about their feelings.

There are alot of times in life when you're dying to know something, or yearning for a piece of information to ease your mind about one thing or another, but you just can't have it without crossing a bounary you shouldn't cross, so you live with it or deal with it in some other way. I don't think that Karen 'needing' to know where she stood in her relationship with Jim entitled her to drag Pam into it, I'm sorry. Is she evil for doing so? No. Can I understand her reasons? Yes. But that doesn't excuse the fact that it was rude, in my mind.

And that was an interesting comparison of Roy/Karen's reactions, Wink!

Apr 15th 2007

I haven't had the chance to read through the whole thread, but I wanted to say I actually liked the way they resolved the Roy-Jim fight at the beginning of the episode. I think when the Season 3 DVD comes out (or if you've downloaded both episodes on iTunes) and you can watch both episodes back to back, it'll seem just perfect. I mean, we were expecting Roy to confront Jim at the D-M office, and Dwight's intervention was so classically Dwight, which is why I felt that it didn't seem cheap at all. It was more like, "Duh, of course this is what would happen! I should have expected this."

I also liked Michael's line, "Everyone here is extremely gruntled."

Oct 5th 2008

I also liked Michael's line, "Everyone here is extremely gruntled."

I also love this line, BlueLightning. Where did you get your handle from?

Oct 5th 2008

Emmyjean used to be a fairly regular contributor here. She hasn't been around since May. I wonder what happened to her. Blue Lightning, while perhaps having not made as big as impact on NA in my mind, is also missed.

Oct 5th 2008

Maybe she has a life.

Oct 5th 2008

WTF??

Oct 5th 2008

Word.

Oct 5th 2008

Maybe she has a life.

Interesting. What's that like?

Oct 6th 2008

Let's not think about it too much. NEW EP ON THURSDAY!!! YES!!!!!!!!!

Feb 18th 2010 edited

Just a blast from the past. NBC.com posted some videos of Jim and Pam from S3 and included the breakroom scene from this episode. I decided to check out what folks had to say in real time here. Holy crap! Folks were a bit more invested in the show three years ago than they are today. That said, EmmyJean posted this after this episode aired:

Which is the main reason why I want this whole Karen debacle to come to a far-overdue end...I feel like Jim isn't back yet. He hasn't been himself all season.

Pretty good premonition. Also, the idea that Karen wasn't inappropriate in confronting Pam about the kiss is crazy. How would dragging Pam's feelings out into the open make things less weird?

Oh, and Jim was a douche and I hated the violent Roy resolution to that detour.

Feb 18th 2010 edited

3/29/07

Has anyone watched tonight's reruns and felt a bit of "you can't go home again" nostalgia for the way things were, exacerbated by a preview of an episode exemplifying the way things are?

Wow, I've been disenchanted for a long time now.

Then again...

4/5/07

That whole episode just blew me away. I'll call it right now: best episode of the season. The tone was so season 2....They made Roy, not likeable, but sympathetic, like junkie on the road to recovery... And Pam was sympathetic for the first time without being pathetic, to me anyway.

Also...

4/5/07

That...WAS...AWESOME

Thanks for backing me up, AMJ.

Feb 18th 2010

Wow, I've been disenchanted for a long time now.

Understandable given that you had been watching six months of Bad Decision Theater.

Feb 18th 2010

I have to admit, I'm glad I didn't watch the show as it was going on back in the day. I'd probably be the same way since I tend to over analyze, well, pretty much everything.

As someone who "caught up" on Seasons 1-5 this past summer/early autumn I haven't become disenchanted at all. But I'm sure I would if I watched from the beginning in real-time.

Also, I'm pretty sure it makes me a horrible person, but I actually laugh more at Season 4 than any other season.

5 days ago

So I was watching this one last night on a popular cable network. While the episode certainly made me laugh and is still excellent, what also tickled me was remembering the heated discussions we had on here about the exchange between Pam and Jim in the break room. Internet nostalgia: catch it!

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