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3.18 The Negotiation
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Apr 6th 2007

Well, I personally assume that Pam has already detailed the other reasons to Roy. She must have given him some explanation as to why she called off the wedding, and it definitely couldn't have been anything to do with Jim. So my guess is that he knew she felt suffocated, she needed to persue her life, she felt she'd sacrificed too much, they'd grown apart...etc.

Right?

Apr 6th 2007

I saw the perpetrator advance towards the victim at a high rate of speed...

Dwights police speak was made even better by his use of 'meter' instead of foot, brilliant

Apr 6th 2007

The teddy bear with the police uniform on the certificate, priceless...and also Michael calling his suit bisexual instead of unisex. I just remembered those two things and I HAD to post them.

Also, why did Kelly use Kapoor for her baby's last name instead of Howard? I know that Kapoor is her last name, but I just thought it was weird that she used her name instead of Ryan's, since everything else in her life revolves around him.

Apr 6th 2007

Well, didn't Woody Allen once voice the theory that the "k" sound is the funniest sound of all? That's why it's "Spider the size of a Buick" instead of "Spider the size of a Dodge" or "Spider the size of a Dautsun". Maybe someone just thought the "k" in "Kapoor" was funnier than "Howard".

Apr 6th 2007

Maybe she just didn't want to freak Ryan out any more by slapping his name onto her babies. Then again, she doesn't exactly have a history of such restraint.

Apr 6th 2007 edited

Has anyone noticed the differences between Roy and Karen in regards to their tolerance towards the Jim and Pam friendship? Roy seemed at least cool with it (Boys and Girls), maybe for the wrong reason (Pam's not chatty when she gets home), but he at least allowed to go on. Whereas Karen seems really insecure about it and gets mad at Jim if him and Pam have any conversation.

Also, the differences between Karen and Pam: Karen is assertive, confrontational and has high career aspiriations for herself and Jim; Pam is laidback, was "happy with her choices", and just gets through her job each day. Jim used to be more like Pam, but now he is becoming more like Karen, with her nagging him on no less.

I think Jim/Pam are at there lowest point and can maybe now at least build their friendship back up, at we can get pure-funny episodes without the drama.

Apr 6th 2007

Usher Jennifer Hudson Kapoor is much funnier than Usher Jennifer Hudson Howard.

Maybe it's the alliteration of Hudson Howard that kills the second option as a joke.

From a character perspective, I can buy Kelly being (or pretending to be) a strong American woman and keeping her last name... Like a celebrity would.

Apr 6th 2007

All this Jim's hair talk is funny. Does anyone have any confirmation that it really is a wig? I agree it sort of looks it. Also - didn't Jim wear a wig for a while in S2, after having filmed Jarhead during the summer before? If he did, I guess you could compare those episodes to this one.

Apr 6th 2007

Roy seemed at least cool with it (Boys and Girls), maybe for the wrong reason (Pam's not chatty when she gets home), but he at least allowed to go on. Whereas Karen seems really insecure about it and gets mad at Jim if him and Pam have any conversation.

Well, yeah...because he apparently didn't see Jim as any kind of threat. Roy underestimated Jim. And he also didn't bother that much with understanding Pam, and therefore didn't see that Jim is exactly the kind of guy that Pam might fall for. He was also too secure in his relationship with Pam, since he'd been with her for a decade.

Karen has the benefit of hindsight. Jim had romantic aspirations with regards to Pam...she KNOWS this. He told her. Also, he told her he still does have feelings for Pam, even now. She's also only been with Jim for a few months, so...not quite as much history to count on being the glue that holds a couple together.

Apr 6th 2007

And I'll say this again: Anybody who seriously thinks that Jim & Pam aren't going to end up together is way overthinking the situation. The chances of that are about the same as the chances of yours truly boarding the space shuttle sometime soon.

Doesn't everybody know that DwightfromtheFuture doesn't need primitive technology like the space shuttle?

Apr 6th 2007

Yeah, I don't know much about the state of the future you live in, DftF. Has space travel been privatized? What exactly are the odds of you boarding the space shuttle soon?

Apr 6th 2007

Lan Levinson wrote:

Jim, on the other hand, with his bitter comments toward and about Pam, is dangerously close to jerk-hood. I know that the writers can't give us Jim & Pam getting together right away, but what I'm starting to fear is that they are pulling the two of them so far apart that when they do finally get together it will seem way too contrived.

From personal work experiences, I would at least partly disagree. I have seen some very bitter things said from one person to another, who really hurt them deeply. It's those we are closest to that hurt us the deepest and it can come out very nasty when we feel betrayed. But as true friends, when apologies are made and hearts are mended, the healing can be instantaneous. I've seen vicious text messages one day and love notes the next.

Apr 6th 2007

Well, ideally they wouldn't because they wouldn't have let it come to this point in the first place.

Which is Jim's fault as well. But I agree with you, that is the ideal solution. ;)

No, it's not Jim's fault as well. The whole reason it's even at this point is because of Pam's inaction, or action in the wrong direction. I don't feel bad for Pam. If she wanted to say something to Jim, she should just say it, period. Her reactions are not totally unrealistic, but that doesn't make them any less frustrating, either. To paraphrase the great Jan Levinson, there are always a million reasons not to do something.

Apr 6th 2007

No, it's not Jim's fault as well.

Yes, it is.

The whole reason it's even at this point is because of Pam's inaction, or action in the wrong direction.

Story of Jim's life in season two. I don't care how it ended, situations arise out of a series of events, not single ones. No single event or action is responsible for any one outcome.

If she wanted to say something to Jim, she should just say it, period.

Nope...Jim's timing was terrible when he 'just' said it, and look what happened. Timing is very important.

Apr 6th 2007

Terrible timing, yes, but he was out of time, too.

Anyway, I think Pam is responsible for most of the developments since she got back with Roy, but remember, Jim has been intentionally keeping her at arm's length this whole season.

Apr 6th 2007

I agree with Emmyjean. That is all.

Apr 6th 2007

Well, and we've argued about this before. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone's mind on the subject. There's only so much arguing one can do before agreeing to disagree.

Apr 6th 2007

I don't feel bad for Pam.

Ouch.

Apr 6th 2007

What exactly are the odds of you boarding the space shuttle soon?

Zero. I wouldn't get in a bucket of bolts like that. I am currently, as per usual on days other than Thursday, skipping calmly through the outer reaches of the Solar System in a frictionless space orb. Soon I will land at Victoria Space Port on the planet Babaloon, near Betelgeuse, for to buy some orange juice and Diet Coke.

Apr 6th 2007

Pertaining Jim, did anyone think that with the wig and bags under his eyes that he looked an awful lot like Tim from the British Office? Especially when Dwight keeps denying his thanks and whatnot.

Apr 6th 2007

No, we're not going to agree. I am just Pam-weary. And this:

Then I saw her call him back into the room after taking his little zinger about Roy up the ass, and she finally got him to look at her as she earnestly told him one more time (no trying to make light of it) how sorry she was.

proves my point exactly. Pam is not a victim of circumstance; she didn't have to sit there and take anything "up the ass." What a perfect time for her to step forward and say, "I DID IT BECAUSE I'M IN LOVE WITH YOU AND I'M SO UPSET RIGHT NOW I CAN'T SEE STRAIGHT." I'm sure that would have stopped Jim in his tracks. Pam doesn't have to be in the situation she's in. It's as simple as that. She could choose, even for a moment, to be brave and honest and just put her heart out there. Everyone has faced circumstances when it's difficult to swallow fear and just act. She can't/won't/doesn't, and for these reasons I don't feel bad for her. If she's waiting for the right "timing," then more power to her. If anyone could nail that variable down in any given situation, the world would be a different place. There is no one perfect time.

No single event or action is responsible for any one outcome.

Not true. There are plenty of situations when only one party is wholly to blame for something. Whether this is one of them is debatable, granted, but I'm not splitting the blame for this one.

Pam was not dealt a bad hand in life; it's not as though she has no choice now but to sit back and accept her lot in life as shy, insecure or uncertain. She herself said she's made some poor choices. And I think one of those choices has been to remain quiet for fear of rejection and/or rocking her boat. Yep, she's a nice person, and I'm sure part of her doesn't want to rock Jim's boat. But I don't think that's the biggest factor in her decision.

Apr 6th 2007 edited

I'm surprised no one has said that maybe Jim actually deserved to be punched in the face at least once. After all, he did kiss another man's fiancé (sp?). And I do think that Roy apologizing to Jim was out of character, but Jim probably should have apologized too. Roy is certainly a jerk and a brute and of course we've all been rooting for the breakup, but come on. I thought Roy's comment about Pam getting with Jim was a way of gauging his chances with her again.

One of the things I liked about the US version over the UK version was that there wasn't the same sort of class divide that the UK pushed on the audience-- the working class is brutish and uncultured, while the white-collared folks are smarter, etc. In the US version, for instance, Darryl is bright and makes cogent and reasonable arguments. I was sorry to see them err in Cocktails with Roy and his brother, but I think this episode brings it back on track with the spirit of the show.

Apr 6th 2007

Roy may be brutish in behavior, but I never got crude or sloppy vibes and he cleans up real nice. I think both Roy and Darryl seem like guys who could work either upstairs or downstairs (as it were). I do agree there is very little classism in the show.

Apr 6th 2007

I agree with this...

I'm surprised no one has said that maybe Jim actually deserved to be punched in the face at least once.

I agree with this more...

And I do think that Roy apologizing to Jim was out of character, but Jim probably should have apologized too.

Apr 6th 2007

Jim should have apologized. And punching someone in the face is really not the answer, regardless of which person is at the receiving end of the fist. I would say that even if the tables were turned and Roy was the one getting punched. Of course, it would still provide a small and primitive sense of satisfaction for me if that were the case. But it would still be wrong.

Apr 6th 2007

nd punching someone in the face is really not the answer, regardless of which person is at the receiving end of the fist.

I agree. But it's not like Roy didn't have a beef with Jim for making a move on his fiance. Of course he reacted...poorly. And I'd never punch anyone in the face. But the romance obscures that Jim wasn't quite in the right. And I mean the kiss, not the declaration of love.

Apr 6th 2007

I feel really let down by Jim talking as if Roy would have killed him. I'm not saying it isn't rattling to be attacked in a place that should be safe, but I guess I hoped he'd be more pissed than scared. He seemed to lack what c]:{)-IIE=| likes to call "cojones." I guess I wish he had postured more about it afterward instead of trying to give Dwight something gift wrapped. I sort of get why Dwight was scornful. I do think that, although Dwight will probably never know, Jim keeping Dwight's office conquest a secret is a far more fitting reciprocation. That seems like a guy thing.

I do not think Jim should have apologized to Roy for kissing Pam or that he should have punched back. And I did not know that pepper spray foamed.

Apr 6th 2007

Welcome back Ms. Karen M. Terious.

That's a tough spot for Jim. Show too much cojones and you're no better than Roy. Too little and you've got no cojones. That said, I agree he erred toward the latter. Why wasn't he angrier? I guess he saved that for Pam. And I'd say Dwight could pepper spray the next five assailants who walk in the room, and they still wouldn't be even for all Dwight's Dwightishness. My reasoning as to why Jim owed an apology was that, while declaring his love for Pam was essentially a matter of honest communication that left it up to her what to do about her engagement, kissing her crossed a line. Anyway, that's my thinking. I stop siding with Roy at that point because he was pretty much wrong about everything up to and since that point.

Apr 6th 2007 edited

I think that Jim was not more aggressive or angry toward Roy because of his own feelings of guilt. He knows that everything he's done has been wrong. Think about it. The guy is in an incredibly tight place right now, and it's only gotten worse. He's in love with one girl but dating another. And after finally moving on after being rejected twice, he's STILL paying for it. His girlfriend is insecure and demands all his attention, Big Scary Roy tries to beat him up, and he's further away from Pam now than ever.

Yeah, poor Pam AND poor Jim. Poor schmucks are just so in love they just don't know what to do with themselves.

Apr 6th 2007

To what Up Dog wrote:

"From personal work experiences, I would at least partly disagree. I have seen some very bitter things said from one person to another, who really hurt them deeply. It's those we are closest to that hurt us the deepest and it can come out very nasty when we feel betrayed. But as true friends, when apologies are made and hearts are mended, the healing can be instantaneous. I've seen vicious text messages one day and love notes the next."

I hope you're right, Up Dog. Right now the tension between Jim and Pam is building, which is probably a good thing. I'd rather see them expressing these emotions with each other (which we all know are borne out of desperate love for each other), than see them become sort of indifferent to one another (which is where I fear the writers may be taking Jim, and that REALLY scares me).

I don't think that Jim and Pam can ever truly be "just friends" ever again.

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