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3.18 The Negotiation
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Apr 10th 2007

I enjoyed reading everybody's recent analysis of the break room scene, and I agree as well. It hasn't always been as much fun to watch the new Jim, but I've enjoyed seeing his journey, and I'm excited to see what the next step is.

Apr 10th 2007

I think a erfect solution to all of this would be simple: Jim ends up with Pam by the end of this season, then Roy focuses his attention on Angela. That way, Jim and Pam are resolved, and a Roy/Dwangela thing could be very funny as well as interesting.

Apr 10th 2007

I'd like to see Roy fight Dwight. I think Dwight win, if only because Roy would be deeply confused by Dwight's alleged "tactics" and "strategy". Then out would come the nunchakus.

Apr 10th 2007

I read this on wikipedia about the Negotiation episode..

The next day Andy returns from anger management, seemingly ready to make amends with his co-workers. However, on his way in, Dwight sprays him with pepper spray and Andy falls to the floor in agony. Toby then confiscates all of Dwight's weapons (which include a stun gun, a boomerang, handcuffs, a nightstick, a pair of brass knuckles, and a samurai sword).

I didn't see this part of the show. I even watched it again. Am I missing something? Did they release so additional footage in some regions of the country? I even looked on the web for director's cuts and deleted scenes and didn't see it.

Am I going crazy?

Apr 10th 2007

It was at the very end of the show. After Jim witnessed Dwangela-in-progress, they went to commercial, and then came back with that scene.

Apr 10th 2007

Great throwaway line: "I am declining to speak first."

Apr 10th 2007

Why no deleted scenes? Other supersized episodes have still had deleted scenes. Me greedy. Need more Office.

Apr 10th 2007

First post. Never felt compelled to join in, because there are several of you who say what I am thinking much more clearly and concisely than I could. I did, however, come up with a couple original thoughts of my own concerning this episode (at least I think they haven't been said yet).

When Pam was apologizing in the break-room to Jim, and Jim said "No, It seems like you two have a really deep connection," I thought he was somewhat testing her. What I mean is, I really expected Pam to respond with, "Roy and I have a history, that is entirely different than a deep connection. We haven't had a real connection in ages." Or, something like that. Because, the truth is, Jim is the one Pam had the deep connection with in seasons one and two; Roy was just there. The reason I felt he was testing her is because at that point, when he was saying that, he was facing the candy machine, but he looked like he was really listening for what her response would be. Then, after she replied, "Well, not anymore," that's when he got that ugly smirk and said, "I'm sure you'll find your way back to each other eventually." I could be totally off, but I think he felt she just confirmed (in his mind not hers) what he suspected; that Pam felt more connected to Roy up until Roy smashed up a bar and attacked him in the office.

Second thought: When Roy apologized, I thought Jim would say something like, "No problem, I'm sorry too." I mean the guy kissed Roy's fiance a month before the wedding. If I did that even my best friend, brother, Father, uncle, you name it, would agree that I deserved to get my ass majorly kicked! Is Jim not sorry? I'm sure he's sorry for the fall-out, but maybe not for kissing her. And then there was that look from Karen. She looked like she didn't like Jim's reaction to Roy's apology. I think maybe she wanted to hear him say he regretted it.

I don't know. Maybe I'm making somethings out of nothings, but these two scenes were so ambiguous, that I'm trying to interpret them and wonder what you smart people think. Sorry this is so long, see, this is another reason I read and don't post!

Apr 10th 2007

Excellent post, Thomas. I definitely agree with you that Jim's body language while he was looking at the vending machine was pretty tense. He was weighing what she said carefully. As far as Karen goes, I think you're right on the mark. She definitely doesn't like the idea of Jim and Pam (what girlfriend would?) and I don't think she liked Jim's response either. I hope that was some foreshadowing, because if anyone gets dumped in that relationship, it should be Jim. And it should have been after he confessed his feelings for Pam.

Apr 10th 2007 edited

I agree with the last two posts and would like to add that Jim must know that Pam told Roy about them and he probably took that as a betrayl of the little moment they shared in Casino Night and that his comment "you seem to have a really strong connection" directly speaks to that feeling of being talked about behind his back.

Oh, and I definitely think it's strange that the documentary crew didn't warn Jim-- true, a confrontation would be good for the film or whatever is coming out of their footage, but if they notified Pam that Angela bought Dwight a candy bar, they should be concerned for one of their stars' physical well-being, especially after seeing Roy pace around heatedly outside.

Sorry, one more thing. Tim was a little guy. Jim is pretty big (at least tall), and pushed Roy around in Basketball, so him saying that Dwight "saved his life" strikes me as hyperbolic.

In regards to my earlier post, I see that the writers are unfortunately straying further into white v. blue-collar territory in the upcoming ep.

Apr 11th 2007

I agree with the last two posts and would like to add that Jim must know that Pam told Roy about them and he probably took that as a betrayl of the little moment they shared in Casino Night and that his comment "you seem to have a really strong connection" directly speaks to that feeling of being talked about behind his back.

That seems a bit harsh on Jim's part, to have him see Pam's confession to Roy as a "betrayal". It was going to come to light at some point, after all Jim told it to Karen. I'm sure he wasn't eager for Roy to find out, especially after learning that Pam had called off the wedding. But that moment between them was going to come out eventually. I'm just glad Dwight had his pepper spray handy.

Apr 11th 2007

I'm sure he wasn't eager for Roy to find out, especially after learning that Pam had called off the wedding. But that moment between them was going to come out eventually.

Right...I think that Jim had been lulled into a false sense of security over the past months. I imagine that maybe he thought Pam had already told Roy about the kiss, and Roy had already had his big blowup by the time he (Jim) was transferred back to Scranton. So recently, he's been regarding Karen as the biggest issue he had. Suddenly, when Roy came into the office with that terrible look on his face and snarled his name, Jim knew EXACTLY what the score was...I loved that little glance at Pam.

As far as Jim's blowoff reaction to Pam's apology, I think it was also (and I think someone said this before) that he didn't WANT Pam's apology. He would have probably preferred that she not speak to him at all on the subject. And Thomas, I agree with you...he was trying to goad her into something. What, I'm not sure, but I think you're right. Obviously he didn't get what he wanted, so he left the room.

Apr 11th 2007

It's kinda like whenever someone that you care about (either romantically or just as a friend) is in a situation where they keep coming back to the person that is obviously wrong for them, then starts complaining about how they can never seem to get it right or why is it that their life sucks so much. When Pam was with Roy the first time around, Jim was her go-to guy for all her problems (was it in "The Alliance" where he says that? I know it was early on in the first season, or maybe "Hot Girl"), so he got to hear every detail of their relationship. He knows their history, he knows their issues over the years, I don't blame him for being skeptical.

Apr 11th 2007

I was watching the deleted scenes for "Boys and Girls" and there's a nice moment where Roy and Dwight have a discussion about guns (interesting, given that Roy only came after Jim with his fists). I wouldn't be surprised if they had more in common than differences.

But Dwight and Jim are certainly growing into a weird friendship/rivalry thing. Unlike Michael, I think Jim can keep Dwight's secret. For more than a day

Apr 11th 2007

I agree about Jim and Dwight. In fact, I'd say that's been one of the great developments of Season 3, and possibly the most surprising for me. I wouldn't have thought they could pull that off. I credit Rainn Wilson for being able to sustain Dwight's essential Dwightishness while the writers gradually made him a bit more human.

And I can't remember if I posted this already or if I just thought it, but when Jim tells Pam she and Roy have a connection and they'll eventually find their way back together, it's particularly crushing because isn't that pretty much what we all think/thought about Jim and Pam?

Apr 11th 2007

And I can't remember if I posted this already or if I just thought it, but when Jim tells Pam she and Roy have a connection and they'll eventually find their way back together, it's particularly crushing because isn't that pretty much what we all think/thought about Jim and Pam?

Brian, I totally thought this. Maybe that's what he was trying to goad her into...saying something like, "Roy's not the one I feel that connection with, Jim...it's you. Will we ever find OUR way back?" Or, you know...something like that. Expressed in a more Pammy way, of course. Don't call her Pammy.

Apr 11th 2007

Maybe that's what he was trying to goad her into...saying something like, "Roy's not the one I feel that connection with, Jim...it's you. Will we ever find OUR way back?"

I didn't think Jim was implying that with his statement, but I do think it was another case of the writers giving double meaning and symbolism to a line like they do so often.

Apr 11th 2007

When Roy apologized, I thought Jim would say something like, "No problem, I'm sorry too." I mean the guy kissed Roy's fiance a month before the wedding. If I did that even my best friend, brother, Father, uncle, you name it, would agree that I deserved to get my ass majorly kicked! Is Jim not sorry?

I would've liked it if he'd just said "yeah, me too" or something, and I think under different circumstances he might have. He didn't even really want to talk to Pam about it, so I'm sure talking to Roy was the last thing he wanted to do. I mean, he didn't say anything, he just gave him a look that seemed to say "dude, just leave me alone" as much as it did "it's ok." That said, I doubt Jim is all that sorry about it. I'm sure he realizes it was inappropriate, but we know he doesn't think much of Roy, he knows Roy was wrong for Pam, and yet after 3 years (we determined Pam had been there about 3 years, right?) he had never done anything that could really be considered disrespectful of their relationship. He never said "I don't think he's right for you Pam," or tried to cause trouble between them, or anything like that. That doesn't make it "ok" for him to kiss another man's fiance, but my point is that I doubt he feels much remorse for it.

Apr 11th 2007

You know, I just have to say something here...and maybe it's just the feminist in me talking after having gone to an all-girls high school. ;) I don't think Jim was wrong to kiss Pam. Yes, he kissed another man's fiance...but why should he take Roy into consideration at all before deciding to do so? He kissed Pam. He kissed her because he loved her, and because he was making one last ditch effort to show her what she COULD have if she chose to be with him. That kiss was between Jim and Pam, and no one else.

To say that the kiss was somehow between Jim and Roy is to relegate Pam into the 'property' category. She was 'Roy's', and Jim tried to 'take' her. Sorry, I don't buy this. Pam is a person. If there was anyone who should have been worrying about Roy, it was her...hence her initial rejection of Jim. I think that is all the respect Roy deserves, and she gave it to him by not making a rash decision to throw away their ten-year relationship and by not letting Jim get any further with her, physically.

I think that's more than enough. Jim wanted to kiss Pam, and when he thought SHE would be open to it, he did...Roy doesn't enter into it as far as he's concerned. The only time Roy enters into it for Jim is if Pam brings him into it - ie you can't kiss me again, I'm engaged to Roy. Then that's HER putting the brakes on, and Jim respects HER wishes.

Apr 11th 2007

If there was anyone who should have been worrying about Roy, it was her

I look at it another way. We use possessive pronouns all the time in speaking of relationships: "my wife" or "your boyfriend" or "his fiance." It doesn't relegate a person to property, but rather identifies that person in the context of who they've committed themselves to.

Just speaking for myself, I know I wouldn't have appreciated a guy approaching my wife when she was my fiance, telling her he loved her, and, after she rebuffed him, coming back and kissing her. This goes back to the "two rejections" debate. The first half, when Jim tells her how he feels, is far less egregious to me than coming back for the kiss. One is communication and honesty. The second is a violation of something important and meaningful.

Michael Scott's Book of Love notwithstanding, an engagement means something. It may be a far better time to screw up a relationship than marriage, but it's still a commitment.

Apr 11th 2007 edited

I love your whole post, Emmyjean, especially this:

To say that the kiss was somehow between Jim and Roy is to relegate Pam into the 'property' category. She was 'Roy's', and Jim tried to 'take' her.

I have been thinking the same thing. I know last week I posted that Jim should have apologized, but shortly after I wrote it I thought, "Wait a minute. Why should he apologize to Roy? Is Pam Roy's property now?" If Jim wanted to apologize to Pam ("I'm sorry I put you in that situation"), I might see it differently, but the way things were, Jim didn't owe Roy an apology.

Did you go to an all-female college, too? I'm just asking because if I could go back and do college over again, that's what I'd do.

Apr 11th 2007

Brian, believe me, I'd have all KINDS of names for a woman who tried to steal my fiancee by basically throwing herself at him. BUT...I wouldn't say she owed ME an apology. Then again, I wouldn't try to punch her either. ;)

LT, I did not...I actually went to a university that used to be all-female, but they'd gone co-ed years before I enrolled. Still...the ratio was practically 10 to 1 in favor of girls. :)

Apr 11th 2007

My wife isn't my property, but she's mine. So I just might punch the guy.

Apr 11th 2007

Even though there is no Mrs. Josh, or even a Mrs. Josh-to-be, I agree with everything Brian said, and I'll admit that my reaction in the situation would have been very similar to Roy's.

Of course, if I were Roy I would have married Pam five years ago and she'd be a professional artist due to my loving support, so she never would have even worked at DM or met Jim.

Apr 11th 2007 edited

i go to a women's college! and i am proud to represent with this utterly feminist screen name of mine.

Edit: and Jim shouldn't have to apologize to Roy. Pam kissed back after all. 2 to tango and all that.

Apr 11th 2007

Of course, if I were Roy I would have married Pam five years ago and she'd be a professional artist due to my loving support, so she never would have even worked at DM or met Jim.

That's really the more important point.

And welcome slutty cheerleader. All are welcome, friends, lovers, the disabled and militant feminists.

Apr 11th 2007

Nice, slutty cheerleader (I feel a little dirty just writing that). I hope my daughter wants to go to an all-women's college (and that there are still some around by the time she's old enough to go to college). I have quite a while to "convince" her to look in that direction, though I bet she will be the kind of woman who would consider that option all on her own.

Apr 11th 2007 edited

I don't think Jim has done anything wrong to Roy, either. Roy has a right to be upset, but it should be all about how Pam feels. If she didn't want Jim to kiss her he shouldn't have. (But she did want that first kiss.) I think Pam and Jim both deserve apologies from each other, and Pam owes Roy an apology for staying with him when she didn't love him anymore, but I really hate the idea that Jim owes Roy anything.

My college went coed in '69 (giggle) but we are about 60/40 with more girls than guys, and probably half of the guys we do have are gay. So it's awesome in a progressive sense but kind of hard to find single straight guys ;)

Apr 11th 2007

I agree that Jim didn't necessarily owe Roy an apology for what happened. Pam was miserable with Roy even though she wouldn't admit it, and Jim was trying to show that she could do a lot better.

Anyone else reminded of the other heated breakroom scene (the one in "Boys and Girls" when Pam gets angry at Jim)? This seemed like a nice reversal of that, one person trying to reach out and the other curtly refusing to acknowledge that.

Apr 11th 2007

Anyone else reminded of the other heated breakroom scene (the one in "Boys and Girls" when Pam gets angry at Jim)? This seemed like a nice reversal of that, one person trying to reach out and the other curtly refusing to acknowledge that.

That's a great comparison. I didn't even notice that.

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