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Jim Halpert : I could work here for years
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Dec 20th 2006

Also, I just really think that it can't be the same old thing because a MAJOR factor in their interaction pre-Casino Night was the fact that she was promised to someone else...who is no longer in the picture. By that fact alone, it would be different.

Yeah, different as in, "Now she's not even engaged and she still hasn't told me she has any feelings for me, so screw it. She obviously really doesn't love me." What's holding her back now? Fear of rejection? If so, Jim faced that, too, and he told her how he felt anyway. Suck it up, Pam! Really, when has she put it all on the line for Jim? She owes him at least the courtesy of honesty, regardless of the risk to her own feelings. Jim put a lot out there, got badly burned, and is wary of falling back into his old routine now. He risked much more than Pam has, and I don't fault him at all for being reserved at all.

This drink could definitely use some nutmeg (freshly-grated, of course).

Dec 20th 2006

Hm. Perhaps they both need to just not keep track of whose turn it is. Sometimes if you wait your turn, you come up just....waiting.

Being polite isn't always the best way to do things. Personally, if I were Pam, I'd show up on Jim's doorstep and say "Jim, I was really dumb back in May and I hope you can forgive me for that. I'd like you to be happy, however that happens to work for you, but I'm in love with you and I realize that now, so can I come inside?"

And if I were Jim, I'd say "Yes, Pam, I'd love to get coffee. Now, are you wanting to tell me you're in love with me? It looks like you are."

I like to cut to the chase. Or....cut PAST the chase. And get to the hibbity dibbity!

Dec 20th 2006

I wish I could watch my own life on TV sometimes. I'd know so much more about what people around me are doing and thinking. I'd see the effects of my own decisions more clearly. I'd have insights into so much that I can only speculate about now. But life isn't a TV show. If it was, Jim would know what we know, and so would Pam. They'd have been doing the hibbity dibbity in The Pilot. Instead they've got to figure things out on their own no matter how long it takes, and no matter how obvious the answers seem to us.

Dec 20th 2006

Stupid "fiction." Gah! So frustrating!

:D

Dec 20th 2006

Now, are you wanting to tell me you're in love with me? It looks like you are.

HA! This is one of the funniest things I've read in a long time. Thanks for the lighter side, Pan.

Instead they've got to figure things out on their own no matter how long it takes, and no matter how obvious the answers seem to us.

Well, when I'm in charge of the universe, all of this second-guessing will be eliminated. Mark my words.

Dec 20th 2006

"When." Gotta love the foregone conclusion.

Dec 20th 2006

By the way, screw Toby. He isn't sweet and sad. He's a creepy freak. Lighten up, man. Instead of feeling up Kevin in the breakroom, go get your own robe back.

YES Brian. His pathetic "Why?" when Dwight took his robe was the last straw for me. What a pussy.

Back to the main topic, I can understand that Jim is hurt by the fact that Pam never contacted him after cancelling the wedding, but would it have been so wrong for him to reach out to her soon afterwards? This is assuming he found out through the grapevine before The Convention, but he has to know there was some cause/effect between his actions on Casino Night and the cancellation. As her best friend he could have offered his support, which would have started to repair the damage. It would have been going out of turn like Pan referred to above, but it also would have proven him to be a bigger man than he appears to be right now.

Dec 20th 2006

. As her best friend he could have offered his support, which would have started to repair the damage.

I'm not so sure Jim was ever Pam's best friend. She was the girl he loved, and he was hopeful and willing to take crumbs from her table for a long time. When he made his declarations to her, she called them best friends, and she told her mother they were best friends, but they weren't. Not really. The short version: you really aren't best friends with someone you only socialize with at the office. When Pam let Jim go and Jim moved away, that was a pretty definite connection cutting. And why should he have offered her his support? She didn't reach out to him, either. I don't want to blame one or the other because hurdles are hard to overcome on both sides, but I really think he's done his part. AND THEN he went a considerable step closer by actually moving back to Scranton, reestablishing himself back in Pam's environment. The fact that he hasn't been warmer to her is perfectly acceptable to me. He got himself home. The rest is up to her.

I do wish he had learned something from the experience, though. Karen is admittedly throwing herself at him with way more gusto than Jim ever threw herself at Pam, and Jim is going along with it. He really should call it off. He's not into her and it's obvious. The only reason I think she is ignoring it is because she just made a big, stupid relocation for him and wants to give it enough of a try to justify her actions to herself. But my theories on that can go into a Karen thread.

Dec 20th 2006 edited

As her best friend he could have offered his support, which would have started to repair the damage. It would have been going out of turn like Pan referred to above, but it also would have proven him to be a bigger man than he appears to be right now.

Well...

  1. Regardless of what they've said, I don't think they're best friends. To paraphrase KarenM in another thread, the fact that they use this term is more a testament to their lack of worldly experience than it is an accurate measure of their depth of friendliness.
  2. I can't imagine how he could have lent support to Pam if he supposedly broke up her wedding. That would be uncomfortable and disingenuous, at best.
  3. I just don't understand how "big" a man Jim is supposed to be. He made the big grand gesture and it didn't go anywhere. Is he supposed to approach her again? Some people would call that stalking. (I promise this is the last thing I'll say about her here, but when Pam doesn't approach Jim about her feelings, people excuse her with everything from "she's shy" to "she's getting her life back together" and everything in between. But when Jim doesn't put it all on the line for Pam again it's his own fault for not going for it? He can't be timid/hurt/confused/reluctant himself, but she can? This baffles me).

Creepy Freak would be another cool user name, BTW.

EDIT: KarenM beat me to the punch with her Jim/Pam explanation, above.

Dec 20th 2006

Good points. I just threw that suggestion out there for something different, I don't think that's absolutely what he should have done. There seems to be this belief among a large majority of the viewers that Pam now needs to make a grand gesture to Jim. That would be "fair" and prove that she "deserved" Jim. I'd like to see this too but I wouldn't feel cheated if it didn't happen.

Dec 21st 2006

The fact is, they're both ridiculously passive. That's why they make a compelling storyline...as Brian mentioned above, if they were not who they were, the storyline would be finished by now and Pam would be pregnant with their second child. ;)

Back to Jim, since this is his thread, I just don't think he should be given any trophies for anything he's done. The reason I stick up for Pam so much is because I'm a little weary of everyone heaping all this praise on Jim for taking the initiative and putting it all on the line, when in actuality all he did was finally grow a pair and fess up to something FAR too late.

Before we get into the "she should have known long before that, he was obvious, she was in denial" argument, I just want to state that I don't accept that. I'm sorry, but if I'm going to be persuaded to call off a ten-year relationship with a man I DO care about and completely change my life, I need something concrete. I need confirmation that this other guy isn't just in the midst of some juvenile crush, that he would be willing to enter into a serious relationship worthy of my making a huge decision like that. He needs to SAY IT because I deserve to hear it. Not give me his HS yearbook picture, not hold my hand while I'm skating, not give me longing looks. He needs to voice it, to commit to it so that there's no room for misinterperetation or debate. Doesn't anyone agree with this??

Also, Jim didn't put much on the line that wasn't already, really...aside from their friendship which, as several people have pointed out, didn't exist in the first place. He knew he wanted more and had always wanted more, and he made the decision BEFORE he said anything to her that if she said no, he'd rather just cut and run than go back to the way they were as 'friends'. Don't think he didn't. Even though he was brokenhearted when she said she couldn't give him what he wanted, he was prepared for that outcome. So he wasn't blindsided and she wasn't doing anything that he didn't probably expect her to do (and therefore, how can he blame her).

Also, he was going to leave right after. He knew that going into the confession. He knew that if worse came to worse, he'd be gone in a couple weeks. He wasn't risking his comfort zone at work, wasn't risking it being awkward at The Office...he KNEW Pam wasn't going to tell anyone about it, so he wasn't risking a beating from Roy or whispers from his coworkers. What, exactly, did he risk of his own? He waited until he had nothing to lose, THEN he made his declaration. Nice.

Seems to me that what he really did was to ask PAM to risk everything in her life (fiance, security, future) for him. Now in Season 3 he's acting like she spit in his face and he can't forgive her...and the thing that kills me is that she DID what he asked. She called off her wedding. She overturned everything she'd known for years...and maybe he SHOULD be the one to ask her about it. Maybe that means it IS his turn.

For the record...I still think it's Pam's turn, for the sake of story. ;) And I'm being hard on Jimbag here, but I really love him and think he was brave for doing it, even at the end. I'm just being...different. And difficult. Where IS that punch bowl?? I need some...

Dec 21st 2006

You know, Pam was probably able to minimize Jim's feelings for her because Roy never took them seriously, either. She probably figured there was some guy code she didn't know, but that the two of them did. And since neither guy behaved like there was anything important beneath the surface (Roy out of obliviousness and Jim out of <name your feeling>), she could gloss over it too.

If Jim knows Pam so well, it would make sense that he'd be able to read her intentions now. But I don't think Pam should expect another romantic Jim overture. Before this morphs into a comment for another thread, I'll conclude with the statement that I don't think Pam is expecting Jim to do all the work. They just need time to recover from their estrangement.

Dec 21st 2006

Emmyjean, we are of one mind on this subject. I agree with every word of your post. I tip my cup of punch to you.

Dec 21st 2006 edited

Why does it matter what his plans were once he told her how he felt? Even though he planned on moving to Stamford, rejection still hurts; even if his plan was to move far away, Pam still told him she didn't want to be with him. Who cares if he left town after that? And why does it matter if he expected it? Again, it would still hurt.

Seems to me that what he really did was to ask PAM to risk everything in her life (fiance, security, future) for him.

How would she be risking security or her future to be with Jim? Seems to me he could provide both of those things for her. At most, she'd be risking a jerk of a fiance. No big loss there. What I don't buy is that it would be impossible for her to walk away from the only life she'd ever known. She'd be walking away from a job she abhored, a fiance she knew wasn't right for her, and a life without a terrace. All for the sake of being with a guy who loves her and supports her dreams and would find a house with a terrace in Scranton for her.

when in actuality all he did was finally grow a pair and fess up to something FAR too late.

Which Pam still has not done.

I need something concrete. I need confirmation that this other guy isn't just in the midst of some juvenile crush, that he would be willing to enter into a serious relationship worthy of my making a huge decision like that.

Concrete as in "I'm in love with you"? Concrete as in "I had a crush on you when I started working here?" Plus, if Jim is her best friend, she could see it written all over his face, don't you think? Why didn't Pam grow a set and tell Jim how she felt, since it seems obvious that she had feelings for him as well? Why was it all about him making a move?

Team Halpert, all the way! No matter how you slice it, Jim was the one who took a chance; Pam has yet to do even that. And I think they make cranberry-flavored Absolut now. I'm there.

Dec 21st 2006

What, exactly, did he risk of his own? He waited until he had nothing to lose, THEN he made his declaration. Nice.

That was your money punch. Well-argued.

Dec 21st 2006 edited

What, exactly, did he risk of his own? He waited until he had nothing to lose, THEN he made his declaration. Nice.

That was your money punch. Well-argued.

You don't think he was risking his own self-esteem? The natural instinct we all have to protect our feelings from harm? His heart breaking? His feeling like Pam didn't think he was good enough for her? (he was, after all, rejected in favor of a guy who thinks an appropriate Valentines' Day gift for Pam is promising Pam the best sex of her life. I'm sure Jim's self-esteem plummeted after that slap in the face). I think he was risking a lot. I don't buy at all the argument that he had nothing to lose. If it's true, then you all have more courage and more impenetrable self-worth than I do.

Dec 21st 2006

I'm pretty much with Emmyjean here. It seems like there's a tendency to lionize Jim and blame Pam for everything, and it doesn't strike me as realistic or particularly fair.

Concrete as in "I had a crush on you when I started working here?"

This is not concrete. In fact, what it says is, ". . . and I don't anymore."

I don't buy the argument that Pam should have intuited something, just known something was up because of the way Jim behaved. That's just not the way some people's minds work. I think there's a certain level on which her lack of self-esteem plays into this equasion; to the extent that she actually did invest any thought in what, exactly, Jim felt about her -- and I would guess that, after years, it wasn't like she was thinking about it every day -- she might well have figured that he was cool enough that he had other things going on than just little ol' her.

Why didn't Pam grow a set and tell Jim how she felt, since it seems obvious that she had feelings for him as well?

This has been hashed over again and again, but: that was obvious to us, as outside observers, but it might be something she had convinced herself didn't exist. As far as she was concerned, it was wrong to have romantic feelings for someone other than Roy, so it's probable shat she did her best not to think of Jim in that way. As they say, denial is not just a river in Africa.

Pam was living, for a long time, in a way that is exemplified by a lot of little maxims that people hear from grown-ups as little kids: "Make the best of it"; "play the cards you're dealt"; "dance with him what brung you", and so on and so on. There is a lot made of the idea that she was ruled by fear -- and people tend to get, well, I guess exhasperated is the word I'm looking for, by that -- but I think there was a level on which she thought marrying Roy and going on with life in much the same manner as she always had, that her parents probably had, that a lot of people do, was wise. It wasn't just safe, it was smart.

And Jim? Yeah, Jim took a risk. But he should stop being a butt-face. If he dislikes what's going on so much, if he's so unhappy, maybe he should take that job in Maryland that Pam wanted him to take. Cos right now, he's stringing Karen along, he being kind of a jerk to Pam -- heck, he's even been mean to poor ol' Toby, and that's like kicking a cat in my book.

Dec 21st 2006

You don't think he was risking his own self-esteem? The natural instinct we all have to protect our feelings from harm? His heart breaking? His feeling like Pam didn't think he was good enough for her?

I have to disagree with this. I think Jim was already heartbroken. After three years of seemingly hopeless pining for her, he had to feel that he wasn't good enough for her or she would have been with him already. No, the rejection in the Parking Lot of Expression was just the final kick to the grief bone. She took away what little hope he still had.

He needs to SAY IT because I deserve to hear it. Not give me his HS yearbook picture, not hold my hand while I'm skating, not give me longing looks. He needs to voice it, to commit to it so that there's no room for misinterperetation or debate. Doesn't anyone agree with this??

Absolutely, emmyjean, I agree 100%. Guys like to complain that girls are too cryptic and that they can't read out minds, leading to an endless number of arguments and misunderstandings. It works the other way too! I just can't buy the argument that Pam should have known he was in love with her. The border between friendship and love is hard to see at best, and very easy to misinterpret. How many times have you all misinterpreted someone's friendship for something more?

Dec 21st 2006 edited

Why does it matter what his plans were once he told her how he felt? Who cares if he left town after that?

Because if he'd told her earlier, if he'd said something and then had given her an opportunity to think about it while still being around for her to contact easily, it might have ended differently. In fact, I think it WOULD have. But still...woulda coulda shoulda. ;)

What I don't buy is that it would be impossible for her to walk away from the only life she'd ever known.

Obviously she didn't say it was impossible, because...well, she DID it.

Jim's fatal mistake was that once he decided to take action, he took too much action - he said what he'd been wanting to say for years, and then up and left. And now that he's back, he'll barely speak to her? Even though she DID NOT marry Roy? I'm sorry, folks...to me, that's kind of a jerk. At the very LEAST he should agree to have a sit down with her...like, COFFEE for example. Why does she have to walk up to him one morning at his desk and said, "I'm in love with you, Jim" for anyone to be happy? After everything that had happened, after her cancelling her wedding, after him being in a different state for months...he won't even give her a lousy cup of coffee? Yeesh.

And as for Jim getting hurt...yes, he was. He was wrecked over it. BUT...I'd rather have my heart broken a thousand times over than to have to deliberately break the hearts of those I care about. Pam broke Jim's in a moment of panic, then had to turn around and break Roy's, break Roy's families' hearts, break up an entire life...and probably, in doing so, break her own a little too. I think Pam has suffered at least as much as Jim has, and he's pretty callous for not recognizing anything but his own pain.

It would have been very easy for Pam to just say, "Well, I've already broken Jim's heart...why go any further? I'll just leave things be" and go through with her plans to marry. She didn't. She took the tougher path, and that's why she's not weak.

Ooh...I'm there too for the Absolut, LT. I'm also partial to the blueberry. We can toast both Team Halpert and Team Pam. One day hopefully they'll be unified. :)

Dec 21st 2006 edited

I think Jim was already heartbroken. After three years of seemingly hopeless pining for her, he had to feel that he wasn't good enough for her or she would have been with him already.

Heartbreak because she was about to marry another guy is different from heartbreak because she blatantly rejected his declaration of love.

I don't think Jim is perfect. And I don't think Pam is evil. Nor do I think she's emotionally blind, which is why I'm sure she knew how Jim felt before he told her. Not acknowledging it, I can buy. Not knowing...nope. She knew. And, like I've said before, I don't think low self esteem is a reason to not do something. She still could have decided it was important enough to her to take action. It's not like faulting someone with a broken leg for not being able to run a race. Even if you can't control your feelings, you can pretty much control your actions. She could have acted bravely even if she didn't feel that way.

Jim was braver.

Come on over, Emmyjean. I have the liquor and the mixers. Bring your own sleeping bag :-).

Dec 21st 2006

It seems like there's a tendency to lionize Jim and blame Pam for everything, and it doesn't strike me as realistic or particularly fair.

Spend some time on the Television Without Pity boards. The Jim love/Pam hate borders on the ridiculous.

Concrete as in "I had a crush on you when I started working here?"...This is not concrete. In fact, what it says is, ". . . and I don't anymore."

And he went out of his way to emphasize that he was "totally over it". We the audience know that's not true, but how was she to know that it wasn't true? Even if Michael did make that cryptic statement about the Booze Cruise later that day.

If he dislikes what's going on so much, if he's so unhappy, maybe he should take that job in Maryland that Pam wanted him to take.

Yup, if he needed to get away from her so bad he should have left Dunder-Mifflin all together, not just transferred. (I know that wouldn't have worked in the context of the show, but you get the point.)

I like Jim a lot. If he were a real person I'd want to be his friend. But he's far from blameless in this whole situation.

Dec 21st 2006

We the audience know that's not true, but how was she to know that it wasn't true? Even if Michael did make that cryptic statement about the Booze Cruise later that day.

Mostly because she's smart and in-tune. And your next sentence totally sums it up.

Dec 21st 2006

Spend some time on the Television Without Pity boards. The Jim love/Pam hate borders on the ridiculous.

Oh, I have. I almost got banned because I noted that there was a certain element of blind sexism in it. I got roundly flamed, and then warned. I used to hang around those boards a lot (usually in the Veronica Mars forums, where a very similar thing happened with Veronica and Logan), but I got tired of the hostility, incoherence, and sub-literate posting quality of some of the people around there.

I like Jim a lot. If he were a real person I'd want to be his friend.

Anway, on the topic of Jim, this is pretty much right. One can be a good guy and still be a jerk sometimes. I guess what the turn is for me is that it seems like Jim's sense of the absurdity of his surroundings seems to have blossomed into an arrogance -- whereas before, he sort of gleefully went along with the weirdos in the office, it's as if he now feels like they're beneath him or something.

I'll reiterate: He was mean to Toby. That's just wrong.

Dec 21st 2006

I'll reiterate: He was mean to Toby. That's just wrong.

I'm not a big fan of Toby either, he makes himself FAR too easy to be mean to (speaking of people who need to grow a pair)...but Jim was never one to go after good folks because of their insecurities. I'm not sure if he did it on purpose or not, but it really did strike me at the time.

Good guys CAN be jerks, and that's why Jim being kind of a jerk now doesn't mean I don't still love him to death. I just don't think he's himself. True, he's in an uncomfortable situation, but I think he could do something to make it LESS uncomfortable for himself.

I guess what it amounts to for me is that yes, he is coming off as slightly arrogant. Or more than that, he kind of seems like he's keeping the awkward distance between himself and the others (particularly Pam) alive because he's wallowing (in his own subtle way).

I think Pam needs to be the next to speak about their relationship. Or, that's the way it looks. BUT...I think he owes her something, too. A little leeway. An opening...a stupid cup of crappy coffee and a chance to do what she needs to do. There are reasons why she wouldn't want to have a heart to heart in the office, good ones. He should see that, and accept it.

I think he's being a baby.

LT, I'll be over right after work. That is, if they don't fire me for posting so much on a non work-related board! If that IS the case...you'd better start mixing! ;)

Dec 21st 2006

Ooh! Jim should get himself non-chalantly alone. That would be smart of him.

Dec 21st 2006

I promised myself that I would stop overanalyzing Jim and Pam. But there's nothing to stop me from over simplifying them. It pains me to see people blaming Pam or blaming Jim for them not being together; in other words: blaming them for our disappointment.

Here goes:

In love nobody behaves intelligently or even rationally. Jim and Pam are no exception.

I fear for the writers' lives if they decide NOT to get Jim and Pam together. I picture Kathy Bates in Misery, smashing their legs and holding them prisoner until they write the JAM wedding scene. ;)

Dec 21st 2006

I think that both Pam and Jim chronically make the second, third or fourth best decision they could make in any given situation.

Dec 21st 2006

I didn't think Jim denying Toby respeck nuckles was jerky. It just came as a surprise to Jim. Toby's a nice guy but you don't think of him as the kind of guy to high five, or respeck nuckles or whatever. I think that scene was more a portrait of how awkward Toby is rather than how much of a jerk Jim is.

I LOVE Toby. I don't think he's creepy. He's just the ultimate sad sack. He does his job pretty well, but there's not a lot of happiness. He had enough balls to write up Angela and give her an "Is THAT clear?" I was actually hoping he would gather the guts to ask Pam out on a date. I'm sure it wouldn't have worked out, but I'm sure they would have had an okay time.

Sorry. It's not the Toby thread, I know. I'm pretty protective of him. He's one of my faves.

Dec 21st 2006

"dance with him what brung you"

Yeah, Jim took a risk. But he should stop being a butt-face.

No, the rejection in the Parking Lot of Expression was just the final kick to the grief bone.

I picture Kathy Bates in Misery, smashing their legs and holding them prisoner until they write the JAM wedding scene. ;)

Just a few examples why I love coming here.

Dec 21st 2006

Fleece It Out, I totally agree. Overanalysis can kill a show. I've tried to stop overanalyzing what's GOING to happen, and instead am trying to stick to what has already happened. Safer that way, and you don't start coming up with these huge dramatic scenarios that will just never happen in the context of the show. :)

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