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Is it too early to joke about the Lincoln assassination?: Political Discussion
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Nov 11th 2016

What exactly did Trump ever say that scares black people or gay people? I'm looking for specific examples.

I would say, the first thing would be the birther issue. He was a leading proponent of what many see as a racist conspiracy theory to delegitimize President Obama from the very beginning, and he hung onto that for way too long. Many didn’t see his repudiation as being strong enough, and there was never an apology. Also, he was sued twice by the Justice Department for not renting apartments to black people when he was the president of the family real estate company. He was also fined by the New Jersey Casino Control Commission for removing black card dealers upon request of high rollers who didn’t want people of color dealing cards to them. The ruling was appealed, and held up on appeal. There have been numerous accounts of former African American casino workers of blatant discrimination, too many to mention here, but the information is out there. He has been endorsed by the KKK, and was pretty slow in denouncing that in the beginning—it took quite a few tries. Now, the KKK’s leading newspaper has endorsed him, and the KKK is planning a victory parade to honor him. Also, there’s this from the Huffington Post:

“His white supremacist fan club includes the Daily Stormer, a leading neo-Nazi news site; Richard Spencer, director of the National Policy Institute, which aims to promote the “heritage, identity, and future of European people”; Jared Taylor, editor of American Renaissance, a Virginia-based white nationalist magazine; Michael Hill, head of the League of the South, an Alabama-based white supremacist secessionist group; and Brad Griffin, a member of Hill’s League of the South and author of the popular white supremacist blog Hunter Wallace.”

So yeah, all of that is disturbing.

With regard to women, did you not see the pussy-grabbing video? To some, that was nothing more than “locker-room talk”, (although many professional athletes denounced that, saying that they don’t talk anything like that in the locker-room), but to many of us, it sounded predatory, and it sets a very, very bad example for the boys and men of the world. (Brock Turners of the world...unite!) He’s also called pregnancy an “inconvenience” for the workplace, and said that it’s dangerous for the marriage to “put the wife to work”. That’s scary, because it’s so archaic. He has also fat-shamed women very publicly, holding up the impossible ideal of the “perfect woman”. You had to have seen the way he tore into Megyn Kelly, right? Apparently, she was a bit too defiant. There are many women, (and men), who don’t want Roe vs. Wade overturned, but he has vowed to do that. Yep, scary.

With regard to LGBT folks, he has said he would look into having marriage equality overturned, which is quite a real possibility since Obama was robbed of a Supreme Court nominee, and many of our justices are so aged. After fighting for those rights for so long, the thought that same-sex marriages would stop, and current marriages would be at the least, thrown into doubt is very alarming to that community, and those who care about them. His history of marginalizing minorities of any kind adds up, and it's not a stretch to imagine overlapping between groups, and that's scary.

Nov 12th 2016

He has been endorsed by the KKK, and was pretty slow in denouncing that in the beginning—it took quite a few tries.

I saw that...he was asked about 20 times about David Duke, and said "I disavow him", and the 21st time, he tried to brush off the reporter and said "I don't even know who that guy is", and that turned into a big thing, because he didn't immediately say what the press wanted him to say. I honestly don't get it. Just like I don't get a lot of the things Hillary was attacked for.

With regard to women, did you not see the pussy-grabbing video?

Yep, I don't like guys like that.

You had to have seen the way he tore into Megyn Kelly, right?

Of all the things he's done, I thought that was one of the worst. Especially since he tried to cozy up to her in years past. Then when she asked him hard questions, he tried to bully her. That...and the John McCain comment...were two of the worst. Some of the rest, I chalk up to "showmanship" on TV, or whatever. But still, not the kind of image I want for our president.

There are many women, (and men), who don’t want Roe vs. Wade overturned, but he has vowed to do that.

To be fair, that doesn't make you "anti-woman". And he said he wanted to give that power to the states.

Now, the KKK’s leading newspaper has endorsed him

And the American Communist Party endorsed Hillary.

With regard to LGBT folks, he has said he would look into having marriage equality overturned

Don't think that is ever going to happen. Did he say that? Wouldn't surprise me...but I don't recall it.

Nov 12th 2016

but some of us do care.

I hope you don't think I mean I don't care about other people. I mean, the president obviously has influence, but I swear, both options this year were terrible. I don't care which of the terrible options ultimately won.

The DNC messed up in a big way - if they had Bernie run, he'd have beat Trump.

Nov 12th 2016

The DNC messed up in a big way - if they had Bernie run, he'd have beat Trump.

No way. Trump would have beat him just as bad if not worse. But Biden would have crushed Trump. In both the election and a real fight.

Hi everyone!

Nov 13th 2016 edited

I didn't vote for either and feel like this election has been lost since late January.

That's said, I thought this was very well done and rather moving.

Hey there, AMJ.

Nov 13th 2016

I hope you don't think I mean I don't care about other people.

Nah. We're okay. I see what you were saying.

That's said, I thought this was very well done and rather moving.

Yes, it was. SNL hit the perfect tone last night.

Nov 13th 2016 edited

Don't think that is ever going to happen. Did he say that? Wouldn't surprise me...but I don't recall it.

His SCOTUS choices will do it for him.

And the American Communist Party endorsed Hillary.

And the Russians were in the bag for Trump.

And he said he wanted to give that power to the states.

Yes, you are correct. I was wrong on this.

Nov 13th 2016

I didn't vote for either and feel like this election has been lost since late January.

I don't remember the timeline, but yeah. Samesies, Bri.

Nov 13th 2016

Also, he was sued twice by the Justice Department for not renting apartments to black people when he was the president of the family real estate company.

I heard he's still doing stuff like this, in fact he just threw a black family out of the White House!

Funny? Or no?

Nov 13th 2016

Quiet, you!

Nov 14th 2016 edited

Actually, the thing I found most disturbing about Trump concerning blacks was his insistence that the Central Park 5 were guilty and should still be in prison, if not executed, even after they were exonerated by DNA evidence. And his belief that "stop and frisk" should be implemented across the country.

Hey AMJ.

Nov 14th 2016

Same here, DC...I just ran out of time.

Nov 14th 2016 edited

And his belief that "stop and frisk" should be implemented across the country.

I read about this. It's terrible.

edited to add:

Thus ends a post by Captain Obvious.

Nov 15th 2016

I'm troubled by this stop and frisk stuff.

I know a lot of people...hard right people, militia types...who are really against this sort of police activism. These are the kind of people who hoard assault weapons and dare the police to come after them, so they can start a war to defend liberty. One of these guys, a good friend of mine, has a tattoo that quotes Jefferson "The tree of liberty must be periodically refreshed with the blood of patriots", or something to that affect. In a way, I agree with them. A policeman has no right to frisk me or enter my home, even if he suspects I have a nuclear bomb inside. If I'm walking down the street, I shouldn't even have to answer his questions if I don't want to.

On the other hand...two of my brothers are cops. They will tell you that if they didn't have the power to arbitrarily stop and search people, 95% of crime would go unsolved. When they have worked long enough, they know for sure why someone is running from them, and what they are going to find when they break up that group of teens on the corner. If they don't...the neighborhood suffers. I mean it REALLY suffers.

When the police are aggressive in bad neighborhoods, a percentage of the (mostly black) people they stop are innocent and get harassed. That sucks. When the police lay off, the (mostly black) neighborhood suffers. That sucks too. I don't know the answer.

Nov 17th 2016 edited

So DftF posted on FB on November 10th:

I'm deactivating this account for now. I just can't take social media. In part, I think social media is responsible for this nightmare. So I'm opting out. Maybe I'll be back, maybe not. Maybe I'll just get a lot more reading done.

...along with contact info that I won't post here because privacy.

When the police are aggressive in bad neighborhoods, a percentage of the (mostly black) people they stop are innocent and get harassed. That sucks. When the police lay off, the (mostly black) neighborhood suffers. That sucks too. I don't know the answer.

Part of the problem is the bad eggs (which I know are far outnumbered by the good officers) do damage that is exponential in nature. The power they wield is unacceptable when used inappropriately and there is no way to make sure that there is never anyone in a position of power that will abuse it. Because of that, I think we have to err on the side of the rights and privacy of individual Americans.

Like you said though, there are so many communities that really suffer. I think we need to start thinking about non-standard ways of connecting with them, encouraging community involvement, and putting our money where our mouths are and making sure that our police forces are well-funded, well-rested, and taken care of so they can be the best officers possible when forced with the tough job they have to do every day.

Nov 17th 2016

There are several very upsetting things about this year and this election cycle, not the least of which were the results. Some of those things were kind of perturbing before, but it seems like they matured into full-blown problems this year. There were the echo chambers of false news (on both sides) that things like Facebook have made worse. The troubling smear campaign against facts and fact-checking...against intelligence and education. And this...THING...where the angry manifestation of the abuse that the middle-class and poor have taken over the last 30 years has dragged out all kinds of racist, sexist, xenophobic behavior, Bernie Bros and violent Trump supporters alike.

What I find truly gutting about a Trump presidency is that I like to think that we elect leaders who display behavior that is admirable, that we aspire to. Trump is an anti-intellectual, sexist (yes there are many men who respect women far more than he does) bully with a bad temper and a narcissistic need to be coddled and seek revenge. What does it say about our country that people find those traits admirable? Or that they are so disenfranchised with our political system that they feel like someone like this represents a heroic way of taking on the establishment?

Say what you want about the Obamas and policies that you may or may not have agreed with, but they were always gracious, kind, controlled leaders who addressed the concerns of all of the people they represent. I was never embarrassed at having them represent all that is good in America to the rest of the world.

Now, we have sent a signal to the world (and to our own people) that Trump's behavior is not only acceptable, but admirable. And the angry dregs of society now feel like they have permission to be publicly hateful without repercussion.

Nov 17th 2016

where the angry manifestation of the abuse that the middle-class and poor have taken over the last 30 years has dragged out all kinds of racist, sexist, xenophobic behavior

This is the part I have trouble with when people say we have to understand the rural working class (seems this is code for white) voter. Sure, I can see how they are upset at how both parties have abandoned them, but what I can't understand is how choosing Trump is the response. There were 16 Republican candidates and if "change" was what they wanted then Rand Paul or Ben Carson could have been a choice. Instead they chose the guy running an explicitly racist, xenophobic campaign with no real policy detail.

Nov 17th 2016

There were 16 Republican candidates and if "change" was what they wanted then Rand Paul or Ben Carson could have been a choice. Instead they chose the guy running an explicitly racist, xenophobic campaign with no real policy detail.

I agree with DC. I probably would have chosen every one of them over Trump. Except maybe Lindsey Graham. Nobody likes that guy.

Say what you want about the Obamas and policies that you may or may not have agreed with, but they were always gracious, kind, controlled leaders who addressed the concerns of all of the people they represent.

And I agree with Anque. Am I turning into a freaking liberal?

Part of the problem is the bad eggs (which I know are far outnumbered by the good officers) do damage that is exponential in nature.

We all agree on this. However, I think each side thinks the number of bad eggs is different. I'd like to see some sort of empirical study proving it one way or another. I asked my brothers, "so do you tend to stop black guys more than white guys", and they swear up and down that black guys tend to get more of a pass, because policemen don't want to be "that guy" that is racist, and don't want to end their careers because they will be forced to defend themselves or be aggressive with a black guy. They will say that white teens probably do more drugs than black teens, but they do it in mom's house and not on the street corner, so there is no opportunity to pull over and harass them. If you're searching for a serial killer, you're searching for a white guy. If you're searching for a murderer (and most murdered people are black), then you're looking for another black guy who hangs out in the same (black) neighborhood. Probably.

So DftF posted on FB on November 10th

Thanks for the update. I do worry.

Nov 17th 2016

So DftF posted on FB on November 10th

I missed that, too. I think he's back now.

Sure, I can see how they are upset at how both parties have abandoned them, but what I can't understand is how choosing Trump is the response.

Me, either. It's craziness.

Except maybe Lindsey Graham. Nobody likes that guy.

I saw this guy on the news this week. What a lame-o. Still, he's stupid, but probably better than Trump.

A dirty sock would be better than Trump.

That somebody wore, hiking, without shoes.

Through a sewer.

Nov 19th 2016

.

Nov 28th 2016

That's funny. But you have to not examine the whole Democrat/Republican thing too closely.

Nov 29th 2016

That's my approach to politics generally.

You might prefer another funny version with the same image that said, roughly, "You had a hard time at a play because people booed you? Bitch, please."

Nov 30th 2016

Abraham Lincoln is still bringing the funny 150 years later.

Jan 2nd 2017 edited

You might prefer another funny version with the same image that said, roughly, "You had a hard time at a play because people booed you? Bitch, please."

It was not so much that it didn't align with my beliefs, but more that Lincoln was a Republican back when Republicans stood for what Democrats now stand for. That's what I meant about the Republican/Democrat thing.

To be fair, though, I haven't read much more than an article or two claiming that this is the case.

Jan 3rd 2017

I do not think Lincoln would have been in favor of Black Lives Matter, if that's what you mean.

Jan 12th 2017 edited

I got away from reading the news last year. Because of horrible. I do scan the headlines, though. Feels like I took a cosmic transporter to crazy land.

Jan 13th 2017 edited

I do not think Lincoln would have been in favor of Black Lives Matter, if that's what you mean.

No, that's not what I meant. The political and economic landscape is just so starkly different than what it was then.

It seems decidedly big government to say that the federal government has the right to say that you cannot keep bought human beings as slaves, a standard practice in the South for at least a century. He considered himself a moderate and I think nowadays that he probably wouldn't have been into the extreme tea party politics that seems to dominate the Republican party. In that way, I agree that perhaps he would have found the BLM movement similarly too extreme. It is interesting to note, however, despite his distaste for war, he thought the anti-slavery issues were important enough to warrant it. Or I suppose you could presume that he was forced into it since his very election spurred the formation of the Confederacy. He seemed to have been good at deciding what issue had the most import and was willing to make concessions with other issues that were not as important. That is a decidedly not like the leaders of the Republican Party today.

So really what I mean is trying to say Abraham Lincoln is the same as Paul Ryan or Mitch McConnell or even REMOTELY Donald Trump, just because Abraham Lincoln founded the political party 150 years ago is laughable at best.

Jan 13th 2017

Well, it's good that it is laughable to you, because I think the image is meant to be funny. Stop thinking too hard! :-)

Jan 14th 2017

It is interesting to note, however, despite his distaste for war, he thought the anti-slavery issues were important enough to warrant it.

But then, Lincoln said, "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

In that view, for him abolition and war were inevitable but it was secession that was unacceptable.

Having a strong federal government was the original Big Government position, and the early Democrats resisted it. Seven or eight decades later Republicans came along championing big government prerogatives Democrats of the time couldn't tolerate. But in both cases the lens of big vs. small government draws the contrast. You could argue the federalists favored limited government because the Constitution drew all these lines dictating and limiting what the federal government could and couldn't do. And then the early Republicans effectively championed the cause of individual rights in the face of an overbearing federal tyranny.

At the end of the day, a party is just a label reflecting a current set of ideas and goals and priorities. It's hard to compare figures of one party from one generation to the next, let alone across centuries.

Jan 25th 2017

Imagine if back in 2007, when this thread was started by LT, that someone, like a Future Daoust had come along and told you all that was going to happen regarding Obama and now Donald Trump as your president! Guys, there are still days when I, a Canadian, somewhat removed from your politics, and yet still impacted, still see the news and am absolutely dumbfounded at the fact that Donald Trump is the President of the United States! Like, I still think it's not real. I'm sure it's way worse for you Democrats. But yeah. Crazy times, these.

Hope all is well, otherwise.

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