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4.09 Dinner Party
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Apr 12th 2008 edited

Like I said, I don't think Pam was acting like a bitch. Or being a bitch. Or being bitchy. But even if that's who she was at the time (and I can't make it clear enough that I don't think she was), I much prefer Bitchy Pam to Doormat Pam. Much.

Plus, if she were being bitchy, she would have defended herself to Jan. She had plenty of reason to do so. But she let a lot of things go. She could have said, "Well, I'm glad you're enjoying sloppy seconds," or "So, what do you think of Michael's technique in bed?" or "Tell Michael I still have his boxer shorts from three years ago and I'll bring them to work on Monday." But she didn't acknowledge Jan's ridiculous comments, except to say that she's never dated Michael.

edit: I wonder if this topic has officially fallen into the category that my husband affectionately refers to as "Your ridiculous over-analysis of that show." Also in that category: "Was Jim being callous when he tried to distract Pam as she was working on the art assignment for Ryan?" and "Did Jim know about Pam's canceled engagement before 'The Convention'" as well as "Did Jim and Pam say anything of importance after the kiss on Casino Night?"

Apr 12th 2008

edit: I wonder if this topic has officially fallen into the category that my husband affectionately refers to as "Your ridiculous over-analysis of that show."

That's so funny. I was just going to come here and say the same thing. Mr.TO can not understand how we could possibly have so much to say about The Office. Some people get together to discuss a novel and we get together to discuss The Office (and boobs). We are just having our Finer Things Club.

My husband got so sick of my analysis of No Country for Old Men. He said that I ruined the movie for him with all of my theories and he's blaming the sleeping pills that my Doctor gave me for giving me such an imagination. He said that the movie was just about men shooting each other up and nothing else. What I think it is, is that some people are content with what is presented to them on the surface, while others are not satisfied unless they dig deeper where the real gems are found.

Apr 12th 2008 edited

"Your ridiculous over-analysis of that show."

I think we reach that point mighty quick with this show. In fact, I'm not sure if we don't just start there.

Apr 12th 2008

I hadn't observed it before either. I was talking about Jim who, in the deleted scene, said that Jan scares him after he denied eating with Pam. Also, his reunion with Karen which at the time seemed insignificant. With his fear of Jan, it might be more significant now. I'm mostly just speculating. I hope the NAPD doesn't burst in to bounce me to the Speculation thread.

I disagreed with you earlier, so I want to make it clear I am with you on this one. I don't know if it's a significant plot or character point, but Jim is a wuss with the ladies. I think you can add his years of passivity regarding the P situation to that list.

Read Brian's funny recap at Remote Access.

The check's in the mail. Thanks!

She could have said, "Well, I'm glad you're enjoying sloppy seconds,"

I, for one, wish she had said at least this line.

Furthermore, what griefbone just said.

Apr 12th 2008

I haven't made it through all the posts, but I love the detail this show takes...

The video camera! Wow! I guess Jan's still taping her sex sessions and taking the tapes to her therapist...

I loved all the Le Crousset boxes in the garage. I'm betting Jan bought all that massively expensive cookwear just for this party, and it'll never be used again.

Apr 12th 2008

But: why no TH's with Angela and Andy? I don't think they would have fit in this ep, but I'm betting Angela was having just as crappy a time as our beloved JAM.

Apr 12th 2008

And I LOVE how Dwight and his lady friend both poured huuuuge glasses wof wine, in comparison with everyone else. Hysterical.

Apr 12th 2008

And OH MY GOD, is that the yarn salesman in the background when the police came?

LOVE THE YARN SALESMAN.

Apr 12th 2008

I'm serious. I love the yarn salesman.

Also, I don't think Pam was being bitchy. And I do think Jim's a wuss with strong women. He can laugh off "strong" men, but he always takes strong women seriously. I think it's a bit of gender deference. He simultaneously doesn't want to hurt them and fears he'll get eaten alive.

Apr 12th 2008

Pan, you are saying a lot of things. ;-D

Apr 12th 2008 edited

Okay, I have something to say here. Whether your talking about being a bitch or acting a bitch, the fact of the matter is that the word "bitch" imply's active, purposeful attacking. Your intent in the situation is to put a person down.

Asd & LT, I really started my thoughts about Pam with a line from the Office that she is kind of a bitch which wasn't true then and it isn't true now. In retrospect, I shouldn't have used it because it is way too strong for my intent. I do not think Pam is a bitch or bitchy or even acts like a bitch. She is an extremely nice person that is caring and sweet. I was just noticing as I watched the epi that she was being a little critical to both Jim and Andy which was not something I had seen in Pam before. I still think she was being critical of Jim about the TiVo thing but it could just as well turn out to be a scene that means nothing. We can agree to disagree on that, but we definitely do agree that Pam is certainly not a bitch in any way.

I do think however, that this is part of a growing process. Children learn to do new things, like talk then go overboard and back talk, till they correct themselves. It's the same with adults/Pam. She is learning to stick up for herself, so every so often she's going to go overboard a little. It's part of the growing process (hence the term "growing pains").

That is exactly how I see what is going on with Pam and I really like FNB and her newfound independence. We just saw that she's a lot stronger than I gave her credit for. I also think this applies to Pam and Jim together. They are going to have to work through some stuff getting used to each other and being together as a couple but it doesn't mean that every time they take a step back they won't be taking a few steps forward at the same time. With the takeout scene at the end, I think this epi shows that.

I hope my intent is more clear. It is hard for me to not over analyze but griefbone gives sage advice and I have already stopped thinking about it.

What’s the name of that show?

Apr 12th 2008

I do think Jim's a wuss with strong women. He can laugh off "strong" men, but he always takes strong women seriously. I think it's a bit of gender deference. He simultaneously doesn't want to hurt them and fears he'll get eaten alive.

Perfect. :-)

Apr 12th 2008

He said that I ruined the movie for him with all of my theories and he's blaming the sleeping pills that my Doctor gave me for giving me such an imagination. He said that the movie was just about men shooting each other up and nothing else. What I think it is, is that some people are content with what is presented to them on the surface, while others are not satisfied unless they dig deeper where the real gems are found.

What TO said.

Apr 12th 2008

I've found my feelings oscillating between being worried about Jim's actions last night and being okay with them, and seeing them as a prank, one upsmanship, normal couple stuff, or what ever you want to call it.

I think it's easy to read negativity into scenes like that because now that they're finally together, I find myself a little hypersensitive to anything that might signal trouble for them. For those of us who are just a tad too invested in them, (and you know who you are), the journey to get where we are today was agonizing and exhausting and we had our hopes dashed more than once. We're scared of getting the proverbial rug yanked out from under us again. Historically, most television shows don't leave the happy couple happy for very long, so our fears are somewhat valid. It's obvious that the read on those scenes could really go either way, and while I am choosing to stay optimistic, the thought has crossed my mind that the writers are planting some deliberate seeds of discord between them, but to what end remains a mystery. Another byproduct of this long journey is that perhaps we idealize their relationship too much, and don't give it the room it needs to just be normal. I really think they're going to be fine. I agree that Jim can be a wuss, or a dick at times, and that Pam has pushed the limit of reason occasionally too, but that happens to even the happiest most functional couples. Their relationship is under a microscope and when you're looking at something that closely, you're bound to find something wrong. I'm actually happy that we're seeing them in a realistic light, even if it does rock the perfect little world I have built for them in my head.

Apr 12th 2008

...the journey to get where we are today was agonizing and exhausting and we had our hopes dashed more than once. We're scared of getting the proverbial rug yanked out from under us again.

This was the thinking behind my Casino Night comment above. I watched the U.K. version over the past couple of weeks (first time I'm ashamed to admit) and it was interesting to contrast the Jim/Pam storyline with the Tim/Dawn relationship. Theirs was far less traumatic over the short course of the show, but still had a nice payoff at the end. Sometimes I wish our version could have kept that feeling.

Apr 13th 2008

The bathroom talking heads were great, especially the one with Jim describing Michael and Jan's separate game of making their guests uncomfortable. "...and they're both winning!" I was in the middle of one of those just last weekend, and I remember wondering at the time how I could get out of there gracefully. Next time, I'll be better prepared with an apartment flooding.

Although I don't believe Jim would have really left Pam behind, I can certainly appreciate that after his plan to save them both was sinking, he might have clung for a moment to the desparate hope that he could still save himself. That was over in a flash though, and I agree with the others that he then turned it into a prank/challenge for Pam. That's the thing about those two. They always find a way to have fun with each other. I missed that in Season 3.

Apr 13th 2008

The bathroom talking heads were great, especially the one with Jim describing Michael and Jan's separate game of making their guests uncomfortable. "...and they're both winning!"

That was one of my absolute favorite moments of the ep. I loved it. I really enjoy watching Jim get really nervous and awkward for some reason...

Apr 13th 2008 edited

I do think Jim's a wuss with strong women. He can laugh off "strong" men, but he always takes strong women seriously. I think it's a bit of gender deference. He simultaneously doesn't want to hurt them and fears he'll get eaten alive.

Perfect. :-)

POSSIBLE SPOILER BELOW

I can't wait to meet the Legendary Larissa later this season. Whether she's Jim's mother or his sister, I'm hoping the writers will take this opportunity to give us a little more Jim-backstory and some more insight into his character.

This very apt observation about Jim and Strong Women would be interesting to explore.

POSSIBLE SPOILER ABOVE

Apr 13th 2008

I've just realized why I didn't totally love this episode as I had expected to. gb is right - Dinner Party is essentially just a re-make of Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolff. And that's a play I've never liked. So...

Apr 13th 2008 edited

I just read a brief interview with Edward Albee in which he states that he emphatically disagrees with mtt's opinions with regard to Season 3. Weird, that.

Apr 13th 2008

I think it's easy to read negativity into scenes like that because now that they're finally together, I find myself a little hypersensitive to anything that might signal trouble for them. For those of us who are just a tad too invested in them, (and you know who you are), the journey to get where we are today was agonizing and exhausting and we had our hopes dashed more than once. We're scared of getting the proverbial rug yanked out from under us again. Historically, most television shows don't leave the happy couple happy for very long, so our fears are somewhat valid.

St,D (and everyone else here), I love who you choose to be.

I feel like I need to defend myself in some way. I am too invested in the characters of this show. I have never been invested in any character in any show before, ever. I thought my psychology background was responsible for it. Also, the writers. I do analyze every nuance of the character’s expressions, words, and actions and I’m not always sure about what I think I’ve seen. After rewatching, many times I’ve caught little things that have changed my perspective. That is why I post my ideas here so that I can get different perspectives and points of view from experts in the field. Over analyzing to me is fun but I understand it can be tedious to others. I hope I don’t over do it too often but the drought of new shows, a shortened season, PB&J, and the surreal dinner party has made me crazy I suspect. Please continue.

I just read a brief interview with Edward Albee in which he states that he emphatically disagrees with mtt's opinions with regard to Season 3.

So, Edward Albee preferred Karen? That makes sense.

Apr 13th 2008 edited

Who the hell is Edward Albee?

Madge, I totally understand what you're saying. I don't have a psychology backround, so I have no idea why all of a sudden this tv couple would pique my interest more than any other. Like I've said before, I've never found myself so invested in anything televeision related, let alone an imaginary couple. It's taken me completely by surprise, and it's even made me question my sanity a time or two.

I do analyze every nuance of the character’s expressions, words, and actions and I’m not always sure about what I think I’ve seen.

I've had to be talked down from the ledge more times than I'd like to admit for the same reasons. I credit the acting and the writing for getting under my skin like this has.

Apr 13th 2008

I feel like I need to defend myself in some way. I am too invested in the characters of this show. I have never been invested in any character in any show before, ever

Most of us here are the same way.

I post my ideas here so that I can get different perspectives and points of view from experts in the field. Over analyzing to me is fun but I understand it can be tedious to others.

You are among your allies Madge.

Apr 13th 2008

Edward Albee spoke at our high school. I still haven't seen or read the play.

Apr 13th 2008

and it's even made me question my sanity a time or two.

"Hell, I question it all the time." -- Louis Rothschild, The American President

;-D

Apr 13th 2008 edited

I saw that one coming ;-)

twss

Apr 13th 2008

KarenM: Rent the movie whenever you feel like being depressed about marriage, life or humanity in general.

Or want to see Elizabeth Taylor dressed up (down?) like a frowzy housewife.

Apr 13th 2008

Okay, can we stop with the spoilers in the episode threads? I understand it in movie threads, because you can't talk about new movies you've seen without it. But it's bothering me not being able to read posts, even with the warnings, on this page. If everyone disagrees, then I'm fine with it, It's just bothering me is all.

Apr 13th 2008

I saw that one coming ;-)

Sorry to make you wait so long, but we just got the last of the out-of-town guests out the door.

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